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margie- Show me proof, I'd really like to see it if it exists. Show me proof, peer-reviewed scientific proof accepted by the scientific community, not some guy that bought his doctorate from online. Show me, I want something to read as I go to sleep. If you can show me real proof, I'll be happy and I'll say "you're right, it works".
I'm still quite new around here, so no one has probably noticed, but I haven't commented for at least a month. That's because I've been incredibly sick for even longer than that. It's taken a long time to diagnose, but we think I have POTS, which essentially means my brain, heart, and nerves are having a tough time communicating and causing me a ton of pain. (DocBastard I know that's not a great definition but I tried to keep it simple.) I've seen numerous (over 15) doctors and been an inpatient in two hospitals so far and most medication has either done little or helped but caused awful side effects. I've done many tests (~6 blood draws, upper endoscopy, contrast MRI, spinal x-rays, EKG, echo (not sure what it's called) and worn a halter/holter monitor for a couple days, and a few others I'm forgetting) and tried many paths of treatment/medication.
And out of everything, the only two things that have alleviated the pain (not counting two painkillers, one of which helped but I was allergic to and the other of which helped but made me vomit profusely, in addition to causing even more dizziness, a fever, a very elevated heart rate, and shaking): Chiropracty and acupuncture. Now, I'm not a doctor, but these two things really have helped quite a bit where medicine has failed, at least in the short term. Maybe it is placebo. I really don't know. But my main doctors (pediatrician, cardiologist, two neurologists, and a GI) think those two are not wastes of money and worthwile alternative treatments.
I'm not advocating for acupuncture, but to be stuck in such a difficult position and hear one of my few rays of hope (that my family has now poured 100s of dollars into) dismissed as baloney is a little tough. Please don't say I'm brainwashed, or idiots like me are the reason people continue to pay for acupuncture. I'm as skeptical as anyone. I'm the one feeling immense pain, after all. Whenever my acupuncturist mentions "meridians" and "qi pathways", I figuratively roll my eyes, simply because that's so different from what modern medicine says. But I won't challenge that acupuncture has helped me, one of the few treatments that can say that. Also, I usually hate when people reply to the first comment, but I want people to read this and it actually is quite related to the content of the first comment.
I know about that. GERAC. If you'd read up on it all you'd see they found a relatively high amount of negative effects on patients, one of the trials was called off because of it, and the others were inconclusive on the difference between the control group and the real one. The findings were challenged by at least two groups of scientists. That ain't proof by a long shot. You have to read the followups on these studies, just like with all the "miracle cancer breakthroughs".
7.5% of them had adverse effects, I'm looking at it right now because I still have this shit saved from when I researched it last year. Look it up yourself, simple google search if you're that lazy. You can't just say I'm talking shit when it's all there for everyone to see.
#133- Wow, really? The Daily Mail is one of the UK's less reputable newspapers, and I'm not about to accept as gospel the word of any newspaper, let alone that gutter rag. I said clinical studies that've been peer-reviewed and accepted by the scientific community, not newspapers or governments or lobby groups. #134- Happy it worked out for you, really, but that doesn't mean a thing. "Placebo effect" has been said too many times for people to keep forgetting about it in this argument.
Funny how you suddenly admit I was right. What else would you suddenly admit if I walked you through all this in baby steps? That's just the people who had adverse effects, not even the people who it did nothing for, or the disputed methodology. You even ignored everything else I said destroying your logical fallacies. Please do your research next time, ma'am.
I challenged you to show me actual proof accepted and reviewed by the scientific community that proves acupuncture can heal through anything other than pure placebo effect. You gave me a flawed and incomplete study, and now you're bitching at me telling ME to show YOU evidence? Little lady, that's not how the world turns. The burden of proof's on you, not me. You know who you remind me of? The OP's PMSing girlfriend. But you don't want to debate properly, so I'll call it quits.
Ladies and gents, I give you the quacks' cheerleader. Never happy unless she's mentally editing out all the actual arguments, there's no line she won't cross to avoid facing reality. Notice how she completely ignores my points about the newspapers and the burden of proof, because those are very inconvenient and blow half her points out of the water, and the other logical fallacies I already mentioned. This is why we can't have nice things, because people shut down their brains and critical thinking the moment someone challenges a deeply held belief. So fine, comment back, whatever. Have the last word, because you love it. You'll believe what's convenient for you. The debate isn't over, because you never let a real one begin. Bye.
I think he's asking for the actual papers, and follow up papers on the topic. Not summation by newspapers who only give you half the story. I must say from my own experience acupuncture has helped, even if it is a placebo effect, id much rather feel better and in my normal state of mind rather than feel no pain and be off my face on opioids.
Shrike, you've got a bad case of tunnel vision there. "It's not true until it's proven" fails in the sense that true things will always be true, regardless of when or if they're proven. Just because it hasn't been proven YET doesn't mean it won't be in the future, or that it isn't true in the meantime. People used to believe the earth was flat. What makes you so sure that we are completely flawless with the way we think today, and the way we carry out those studies? The fact is that acupuncture works for enough people to make it a somewhat popular alternative treatment option, and has very minimal risks in the hands of a well trained practitioner. Regardless of how it actually works, it does for many people who have exhausted other options, and who have perhaps been failed by modern western medicine. And believe me, there are plenty of those.
Honestly if it works for her, I don't see what the problem is. I can see these two situations: Perhaps it really does work for her in the way that it's claimed it's supposed to, in which case it would be stupid to tell her otherwise. Or maybe, it acts as a placebo that is powerful enough to alter her psychological response to the problem, thus alleviating it. In this case again, it could be said that the treatment was successful. It's been proven that a placebo won't actually cure anything the physical route, but it doesn't make a difference for someone for whom it worked on a psychological level and ended up resolving their problem anyway. As long as the results are as desired, I see no significance in whether it was "baloney" to begin with or not. I don't think this situation alone is reason to call her stupid.
40, It depends on the problem. Acupuncture is most often used for managing chronic pain. It's not a condition to take lightly, or one that can be ignored. It's also not wise to treat it with painkillers, since it is a long term condition and the pills can have some pretty nasty side effects and cause significant damage when used for a long period of time. This can lead people to seek alternative methods of treatment, such as acupuncture. Again, it doesn't matter how it works. If the pain is gone, and the side effects are minimal, It's worth it.