By Neutered - 27/11/2012 19:52 - United States - Anchorage
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Neutering is not wrong to do, it's the proper thing to do. Declawing on the other hand is extremely cruel to do. Declawing is like putting your finger in a guillotine & taking off your first knuckle, then making you put all your body weight on those wounds. Declawing turns cats into biters.
No, he's not. Cats pick up things with their claws, cats climb aided their claws, cats catch with their claws, cats scratch with their claws. De-clawing is literally comparable to cutting someone's fingers off, not their finger nails, their actual fingers. Nothing a cat can ever do to you justify cutting their fingers off, if you can't deal with the odd scratch, do not adopt a cat. End of.
I have cats, they're not declawed I won't declaw them. But usually the people that declaw them, have them as indoor cats. One even stated that his cat still hunts and kills amd couldn't be happier. Until it's published in a science journal backed by 90% of the science community I will help defend others opinions. Several vets have told me that it does depend on the cat, but it usually doesn't affect them to much. I'm going to side with a vet who has a degree in animals over you, who isn't a vet nor do you have the experience.
I'll start with a quote from a vet. "Part of being a cat is to have claws. Out of respect for the nature of cats and their basic behavioral requirements in the confined domestic environment, caring and responsible cat owners effectively train their cats to use scratch-posts, scratchboards, and carpeted “condos” rather than resort to routine declawing, which amounts to a mutilation for convenience. As a profession, are we not giving a mixed message to the public in advocating companion animal health and welfare on the one hand and not abandoning such practices that are considered unethical by veterinarians and their clients in many other countries? Michael W. Fox, DSc, PhD, BVetMed Minneapolis, Minn"
Then i'll add some fun quotes about pain. (you are under no obligation to read/reply to this, not my fault if you do) "One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy from January 1985 to November 1992. Onychectomy was performed with guillotine-type nail shears (62%), surgical blade (24.5%), or both (8.6%), and wound closure consisted of bandages alone (61.3%), bandages after suture closure (26.4%), or tissue adhesive application (9.2%). The duration of surgery was significantly longer when onychectomy was performed with a blade or when suture closure was used instead of bandages alone (P < .05). Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications included pain (38.1%), hemorrhage (31.9%), lameness (26.9%), swelling (6.3%), or non-weight-bearing (5.6%), and were observed more frequently after blade onychectomy (P < .001). Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed complications after release. Late postoperative complications included infection (11.6%), regrowth (7.4%), P2 protrusion (1.7%), palmagrade stance (1.7%), and prolonged, intermittent lameness (0.8%). Late postoperative complications were observed more frequently after shears onychectomy (P= .018). Use of tissue adhesive was associated with more postoperative lameness (P < .02) and, when used after shears onychectomy, with more infections (P= .049)." (Swalec Tobia, K (1994)'Feline Onychectomy at a Teaching Institution: A Retrospective Study of 163 Cases' Veterinary Surgery, Vol. 23, No. 4 pp.274 -280)
"Feline onychectomy with either scalpel blade or laser results in postoperative discomfort that can persist for several days. The cats in this study consistently favored feet that had been declawed with a scalpel blade more than those treated with the laser. The rate at which the postoperative discomfort declined did not seem to vary between the 2 treatments" (Holmberg, D.L. & Brisson, B.A (2006) "A prospective comparison of postoperative morbidity associated with the use of scalpel blades and lasers for onychectomy in cats" The Canadian Veterinary Journal Vol. 47 No. 2 pp. 162 - 163)
"Long-standing lameness (3–96 months) is reported" " "Several cats have been seen by the authors that fit the description of persistent postsurgical pain reported in humans. These cats can present weeks to months following onychectomy with a history of persistent or intermittent lameness. On observation and careful history taking these cats also show some of the behaviors listed below. In some cases cats received minimal perioperative analgesia (often only one treatment with a short-acting opioid), but, in others, the pain management protocol was quite robust. Behavioral signs suggesting post-onychectomy pain Licking and chewing at the feet, ‘Walking as if on hot coals’ ,Shaking and ‘flicking’ of the paws, Aversion to the feet being touched,Reluctance to use the feet to play with toys or to cover urine/feces with litter, Periods of suddenly sitting still ,Spontaneously vocalizing ‘for no apparent reason’ ‘Running around as if stung by a bee’," (Robertson, S. A. & Lascelles, B.D.X (2010) "Long-Term Pain in Cats: How Much Do We Know about This Important Welfare Issue?"Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery, vol. 12 no. 3 188-199) Haemorrhage, swelling, persistent lameness, persistent pain. Maiming essentailly. De-clawing is physically debilitating an animal in an attempt to prevent easily correctable behavioural issues, almost all of which relate to the aesthetic qualities of one's sofa. It's morally indefensible. And to "No it's not its like not having nails dum fuck." They actually remove one of the phalanges, which are finger bones in humans. Plus cats grip with claws, so even if they weren't removing a finger bone, as humans grip with fingers not fingernails it is an accurate comparison.
#33- Still, there's a chance they could get outside even if they're completely indoor cats. Even if I had indoor cats, I'd never declaw them; what if they got outside and something tried to attack them? They wouldn't be able to fight back, or even climb a tree to escape. :/
I'd never de-claw my cats. OP doesn't deserve to be scratched to bits for not taking his cats' best defence mechanism away from them. De-clawing a cat is asking for trouble if you allow it to roam - as somebody already said, what if it gets attacked? It would be screwed with no claws, and even dulling its claws would impair its ability to fight back or climb to safety.
Don't make generalizations; 38 isn't wrong. it's not black and white. I definitely think it's good not to declaw your cat if possible but sometimes it's necessary. My cat is half Maine coon/Bengal tiger, half housecat (shes still quite a small cat) and she probably wouldn't be able to come inside at all without being declawed. Everything would be torn up. And she still catches and kills rats, dragonflies, even a bird and a bunny one time. She has no problems with self defense.
Agreed. I've worked as a veterinary tech for years and we declaw cats via laser all the time. Quick healing, virtually no bleeding during surgery. They're up walking around afterward and only 2 weeks healing time. My cats are declawed on the front so that if they ever escaped they can climb/fight. They still sharpen their "claws" on the furniture as if they're there. My boyfriend did NOT declaw his and he has holes in the sofa and claw marks on the door ways to show for it. = no thanks
De clawing would be like cutting off your finger tips. I don't believe in mutilating animals for mere convenience or fashion, even if the surgery has a short healing time. That's also why I don't like ear cropping. I don't believe in circumcising babies, except as a religious rite, either. Who knows what other surgeries, animal and human, will be in vogue someday. I think surgery has to have significant benefits for the patient before it's justified, especially when the patient can't consent to the surgery.
De clawing IS a black and white issue. It's akin to cutting off someone's fingers, and if you think that's OK just so you don't get the odd scratch you should seriously re-evaluate your suitability as a pet owner. If your problem is 'they scratch the furniture' and crap like that, well that's a behavioural issue not a physical one. Discipline is all that's needed to keep your precious sofa perfect. Cat scratches furniture? - yell at cat and physically stop action. After a few times merely raising your voice slightly will make them stop and pull the shifty 'it wasn't me and I'm so cute and fluffy' expression. I've had cats all my life, at one point we had 4 at once. Two of them were half wildcat and correspondingly massive, seriously, the boy was as big as two normal cats put together. Not one item of furniture, carpet, clothing or anything else bears any scratch marks whatsoever.
93, [Just to be clear before I make my statement, I'm NOT comparing anybody to an abortionist or mercy killer.] Abortionists and nurses who work in abortion clinics are licensed medical professionals. Yet they aren't the final word in the abortion controversy, and that doesn't necessarily make abortion ok whenever it's legally performed. Licensed medical professionals have also performed mercy killings. While cat declawing is nowhere near as serious an issue as abortion or mercy killing (and I'm not attempting to make a statement on either of those issues) it just goes to show that we can't rely on doctors of any kind to make our moral judgments for us. Just because a doctor thinks a medical procedure is okay, that doesn't automatically make it ok.
I'm not saying they said it's ok. I'm saying they said it's usually pain free and doesn't affect them to much. I know they shouldn't be the decider by saying yes do it or no. As far as abortion I think it's wrong in most cases, but I believe they should have the option.
100 - I'm sorry. I'm not jumping on you or putting you down...but it really is black and white. The people who are defending it are all people who follow it up with "I did it to my pet!" So obviously they're going to defend it. Here's the truth though. I was also a vet tech and it is absolutely NOT painless. In fact, it can be excruciating for the animal. Many vets in North America are now refusing to do it because of this. And EVERY reputable vet in my city has shut down that practice altogether. My cat is declawed. I didn't do it to her though her previous owners did and she did get out of their home and came to our vet half dead. So I adopted her. And I'll tell you from personal experience that she can't climb like normal cats. She also lacks balance and often falls off of surfaces and injures herself because she has no grip. There are alternatives out there (Soft Paws) that are not cruel and are vet recommended. And they are simple to use. But if a person needs to mutilate their cat because their belongings are more important, they shouldn't be a pet owner. THAT's black and white.
Sorry, ran out of time to edit my comment. I also used to have a cat who was not declawed, and we never had any furniture torn up. She was also a very outdoorsy cat in her youth and something tells me that she wouldn't have been able to catch the menagerie of creatures that she did had she not had her claws. Plus I still have some scars on my hand which I look at quite fondly when I remember her. So it's not always all bad.
I do have a question about cats. One of my close friends has a cat with an extra joint on shoulder so when he walks it's like it goes side ways kind of. what do yall think? He runs like it's not an issue. He jumps. He fights. He's a little faster then some of his other cats. Should a vet do something about that (I know some people would recomend death..) or leave it since he's in no apparent pain.
117 - if the cat is in no distress then there is no reason to alter it. Extra joints are not as uncommon as you'd think on a cat. In fact, polydactyls (cats with extra toes) are in high demand and can be quite expensive cats to adopt (even though it really isn't as rare as it seems.)
104: Making a claim like you just did is similar to saying circumcision isn't black and white. You could easily argue that the baby feels pain, yet somehow I'm still glad I was circumcized as a baby. That makes it black and white. Stop making aggressive, assuming comments. Most cats don't have balance problems or problems with grip due to being declawed; you're cat was probably abused in some way, which is terrible. My cat was back full speed immediately after being declawed, and she used to be vicious. Now she loves being inside, going on the couch and high areas, as well as time outside. If the procedure hadnt been done, her life would literally not be as enjoyable for her. Don't tell me I don't know, because if you know anything about "conscientious pet owners" like you say, you'd know you can tell if you're pet is happy or unhappy.
124 - Just for the record, your analogy is inaccurate. Circumcision is not even remotely close to the same thing. It's more like clipping the cat's nail too short and catching the quick, and causing some bleeding. Declawing, on the other hand, would be more like cutting off half of your penis. But you're absolutely right. You would obviously know better than I would. You have the experience of having done it. Whereas I've only ha the experience of working in a vet with many declawed cats.
You're very condescending. I messed up my wording. I meant to say circumcision and declawing are NOT black and white. That's what my analogy was meant to mean. How is declawing a cat like cutting half of my dick off? I would never be able to have sex, be naked in front of anyone, or anything. That would ruin my life, so no that's not a more accurate comparison. How can you say anything is black and white? At least acknowledge the fact that there ARE circumstances in which the answer isn't concrete, instead of making passive aggressive remarks against my intelligence and competency as a pet owner.
Lol 137, not the point. I'm not doubting you worked there, nor am I blaming you. You also sound like a very good pet owner. But your claims that it's black and white, directly aimed at my first comment explaining a circumstance in which it's not black and white, were offensive as you went on to talk about mutilation, materialism, and general unthought fullness
The shoulder could possibly cause distress but based on what you described, it doesn't sound like it is. Keep in mind that I haven't seen the animal though and am only basing my assumption on your description. Google polydactyls. Not everyone likes the way it looks (it does look strange) but I personally think its quite cute. :)
140 - I apologise if you felt I was aiming my comment at you. I wasn't actually. The black and white I was referencing was the one I directly responded to. I actually had to go back and read your comment when you said it was in reference to yours. There are circumstances where it might be necessary, but as far as I'm concerned, furniture will never be one of them. If the at is injuring itself, sure. Perhaps if the cat is injuring a baby even an it means that the cat could remain in its home...sure. But furniture, no. Thats what Soft Paws are for. And my vet did not do any declawing. We did, however, deal with a lot of the aftermath.
I have use Soft Paws on all of my cats (even on my current one who is declawed in front) and while they seem a little annoyed by them, after an hour, they all forgot they were there. They last about two months before they just fall off and come in a variety of cute colours. I ask everyone to at least try them before declawing, and I have never seen anyone who's tried them change their mind and go the route of declawing.
Look guys here's the thing. I'm not a vet yet, I'm aspiring to be one, nearly in vet school, and have spent tons of time talking with multiple vets on multiple topics in-depth and one of them was declawing. There are some surgeries (laser) that are relatively painless for the operation and seriously cuts on recovery time due in part to cauterizing the wound as it heals and thus less blood loss etc. However, the recovery is by no means painless and after the fact there can be lasting issues that are similar to arthritis in a sense but could also be likened to phantom limb. I have never heard of balance being effected but it makes sense since when humans lose their big toe we suddenly have shit balance. The issue is that to do a declaw you have to amputate a piece of a bone (the claw is not just attached by flesh) and every time you deal with bone there is a chance of fragmentation and rough cuts that will continue to grate on the muscles, tendons, ligaments, and everything else in the area causing internal bleeding, inflammation, pain, possible lameness, and the list goes on to possibly even worse stuff. Also, when you remove one piece of weaponry from any animal they instinctively heighten their other forms so instead of getting a scratch (the preferred method of attack for a cat as it allows the cat to stay farther from what may be attacking it) your gonna get bitten and believe me a scratch is much easier to deal with than a bite. Therefore its also inconsiderate to the vets and people (including groomers and friends/family) that may have to deal with your cat when its stressed.
117: if your friends cat is not in pain when the joint is manipulated prodded etc it probably will not be a problem. If the cat is for aesthetics and your friend cares maybe see a specialist. I personally would probably think most vets would say its not a problem as long as they deem that the cat is not affected by it (as in not in pain). I've never heard of that condition before though. I think if you went and showed a vet something like this that may be really rare you may make his/her day though. All vets (well most) love an interesting case. Are you sure its an extra joint though? Because if it isn't it could be a sign of something worse even though it may not seem like a big deal
Declawing a cat is not a moral issue nor is it like taking off their fingers. It is ppakin to clipping your fingernails. Unless the cat is around for hunting, such as a barn cat, then I don't see any need for them to have their claws. Even without their claws they can hunt and defend themselves successfully, they just won't kill your couch or walls. If you choose not to declaw them then that's great for you. However those that choose to declaw are not hurting the animal nor leaving it defenseless. It's an emotional not rational argument. It's only personal perspective. Now if you have house cats, choose not to declaw them, allow them in the bathroom with you and don't shoo them when they get on the tubs ledge; then you deserve what you get!
by "Neutered (man)" Am I the only one who sees the beauty in that?
Daryl? I never want to hear that name again! He's all sweet and charming and heroic and he makes you fall in love with him and then he sees some menopausal bitch behind your back! Well I've had it! I've cried my last tears over that sexy bad ass cad! Nah! Just kidding. I'm still crushing on Daryl Dixon. I'm just feeling walrusie today. :)